Thinking about the Auburn-Alabama rivalry
Hey everyone. As some of you heard, I was a guest on WMSP's afternoon program. Doug Amos, one of the hosts, asked me an interesting question that deserves more examination.He asked if an Alabama win next week will provide the Tide more momentum.
He wasn't talking about the SEC Championship game. Or Florida. Or how an Iron Bowl win could affect the team heading into his postseason situation.
Doug was talking about perceptions within this state.
I've heard people discuss this notion and, frankly, it makes no sense to me. Alabama is Alabama. Nick Saban clearly is doing a very nice job distilling promise from the wreckage. That team is excellent. We all can agree there.
Still, what does that have to do with Auburn?
Alabama and Auburn don't go head-to-head in recruiting all that often. Many players already have allegiances established by the time they emerge as top prospects. Andre Smith never seriously considerd Auburn. Sen'Derrick Marks never seriously considered Alabama.
There is no momentum with fans. Auburn people like Auburn and always will. Alabama people like Alabama and always will. It's not like a 13-0 Alabama team somehow will entice Auburn people to switch allegiances.
We're talking about two separate programs. One's effect on the other is, in my mind, minimal.
For Jerry's Kids: Auburn has been good, in general, since Tommy Tuberville took over in 1999. Auburn is down this season. Alabama is very good this season. Alabama is 11-0. Auburn and Alabama play in the Iron Bowl on Nov. 29.
posted by Jay G. Tate at
3:44 PM
83 Comments:
I agree with you, Jay. That's been one of the biggest things I've had to deal with since moving to Alabama and starting to follow Auburn athletics. All my Auburn friends just seem to worry way too much about what's going on with the Tide. I try to tell them, "Just chill out and be a fan of your team!" I mean what difference does it make what UA is doing? Auburn will sill be Auburn. At least that's my perspective. Great thoughts, Jay!
jay
the jerrys kids section is pure sarcastic genius
thats why HABOTN > other blogs
Jay, you make an excellent point. For those who are born in the State of Alabama you instantly become either an Auburn or Alabama fan. Even if you choose to cheer on another team, there is still an inbred distain for either Auburn or Alabama. The only ones who would switch their allegiance simply because the other team is doing better obviously was never a true fan to start with. In my opinion if anyone is now cheering for Bama simply after one year of success, then the AU Family is better without their company.
I really like jccw. I must say I am enjoying this little feud between the two blogs I follow, though. What is wrong with me? Maybe I would have been a lot happier if my parents had fought all the time and got divorced.
Personally, I find it distasteful that many Auburn fans, as well as Bama fans, are more concerned with "hating" the other team. I don't hate. If I did, a bunch of college kids playing a game wouldn't be enough to instill hate in me.
In general I agree that Bama doesn't significantly affect Auburn in terms of recruiting. Under Tuberville, Auburn's recruiting area has continues to expand and is much bigger than just the state of Alabama.
Yes, I will always be an Auburn fan, but only to excess. I have my limits and that is as far as I will go.
steve, the fact that you are currently in Columbia probably helps your level-headedness. While I don't "hate" Alabama, I do have an irrational distaste for their football success. I didn't when I lived in Memphis and knew only 1, and I didn't when I attended Auburn and rarely ran into any. I really didn't pay Alabama much mind at all. But now that I live in a place where I see the flags and hear the gloating consistantly... yeah, my view has become much more negative.
Amazing Michael, and I had pictured you as such a calm level headed introvert that spent most of his time listening to Jan Terri.
Steve - I'm not sure I followed you on your last two sentences.
michael, you follow another blog?
BLASPHEMY!
No feud between me and JCCW.
He says I'm not sufficiently banal in my reporting. I don't want that sector HOTTIE NATION -- the ones who want the blog to read like an HR letter -- to feel disenfranchised.
I visit JCCW occasionally. It is interesting at times.
Well Jay I would have agreed with you 100% until this past Wednesday. A woman came into my office wearing what looked like a brand new UA sweatshirt. She saw the Auburn football on my bookcase and said something that I never ever thought I would hear in this State. She said "I usually pull for Auburn but since they are not doing so good I'm supporting UA. I kinda like them both."
I never knew such people existed. But what it made me realize is that in depressing times (like now with the economy) or a depressed State (like Alabama) people need things to feel good about. Pulling for a winning team helps with that.
True some players/fans will always be true to their chosen school and some fans are Auburn/Alabama men and women b/c they went to that institute. But some (maybe a majority) are fans for totally different reasons and those reasons change over time. Maybe that population is dictating momentum.
It's kinda like the 'undecideds' in politics. Registered repubs and dems are pretty set but the undecideds sometimes dictate momentum. Just a long thought.
With regards to recruiting, I don't think it is all that uncommon for players who grew up pulling for one team to play for the other team. Brandon Cox and Bo Jackson pulled for Alabama growing up but played for Auburn. Granted that had more to do with Bama not really recruiting them than momentum, and I'm sure there is a similar story of kids growing up as Auburn fans and playing for Bama.
I just think the momentum has more do with bragging rights for the statewide fans of their respective schools. I saw Finebaum write one of his usual, intelligent articles (tongue firmly in cheek there) talking about how he did not think Auburn's six in row really counted for any real traction in Auburn's pull inside the state, especially since Bama was obviously in a down period. But for me, six in a row is six in a row, whether they go 0-12 every year or 11-1 every year.
The only significance in momentum that I can see is that some kids at an impressionable age may choose the hottest of the two teams and ten years later turn out to be a stud recruit. As usual, the game is mostly just about bragging rights.
That's an interesting phenomenon, Big Cat, and one I haven't seen.
I should say ... haven't knowingly seen.
While I agree that Bama and AU don't go after most of the same players, there are a handful that it comes down to those two. Last year Bama had the #1 class based largely on in-state recruits. They got every one of the head-to-head recruits.
I really believe that most high school players want to go to the hot program. Nick Saban turned Bama into the hot program. It was a big reason as to why Cadillac came to AU even though he grew up a Bama fan. We were on the way up and Bama was on the way down.
Also, never underestimate immediate playing time to a cocky hot-shot recruit. It wooed Bo and Julio. Well, an escalade also lured Julio, but who's counting?
I think Doug should have been using the phrase "bragging rights" and not "momentum". I also think that Doug (a Bama fan, bless his heart, I luv him anyway) wants to relish the seemingly inevitable Bama victory and blow it to be as big a deal as humanly possible so it's more fun to characterize it as a "huge swing in momentum".
Alabama does have the momentum now; 11-0 is tough to argue with. I don't know that an Iron Bowl win would increase that too much. Most folks expect them to beat Auburn.
That being said, that same momentum can be absolutely killed with an Auburn win. No national championship, no undefeated season, no end to the streak.
It may not be likely, but it sure would slap down the hubris coming from Tuscaloosa right now.
By the way, is Doug Amos a Bammer?
"Bragging rights" I can see.
"Momentum" means nothing to me ... yet I hear it all the time.
I don't think a win next Saturday gives Alabama's program momentum. They already have it.
-Currently #1 this football season
-Top 5 recruiting season in the works
-#1 recruiting season by most recruiting services last class.
-About to expand the stadium to over 100,000 to meet ticket demand.
Auburn has a good program and will continue to have one. Alabama's program is getting back to where most folks remember it being.
I've lived in this state since 1990 and I still can't understand the venom that flies from UA to AU and back and forth, ad nauseum. I'm an Ole Miss grad and I love my university and support my team but when a game is over, it's over. I still don't understand all of this stuff...and I'm married to a lovely Auburn lady.
I think trying to say that only one team can have momentum is misguided. I would say Florida has momentum now, but it's not at the expense of Florida State or Miami. I don't think it's an either/or.
There is no "momentum" to be had. It's not an election. It's not a contest that has an ebb and flow. You are an Auburn fan or a Bama fan. You win or you lose.
There is no momentum to be had.
There are bragging rights to be had.
Jason ... exactly.
Great post Monica. Bragging rights for the fans more so than the players. Players play as hard as they can on both sides and when its over its over. Fans it not over for 365 days.
Monica,
Momentum has nothing to do with bragging rights.
Momentum has everything to do with the direction of the program overall.
Even Stevie Wonder can see that Alabama's program has a ton of momentum at this point.
Has absolutely nothing to do with the Alabama/Auburn game or Auburn in general.
It is easy to forget the intensity of the rivalry when you live away from the State of Alabama. I grew up in Alabama with an extended family that included many grads from both schools. The Thanksgiving family reunion was a hoot.
I grew up a Bammer and got suspended in HS for tearing up a "Punt Bama Punt" bumper sticker that the AU grad English Comp teacher allowed to be placed on the chalk tray. The teacher and princial were AU grads and made sure I got suspended.
This rivalry runs deep.
Jason,
You are correct that more than one team can have momentum at a time. But the fact is, there have been very few instances of sustained success by both Alabama and Auburn at the same time in the past 60 years.
Auburn was up in the 50's until Bryant was hired after our MNC. Bryant and Bama dominated for the next 25 years. Auburn regained the momentum in the 80's and it translated to 6 wins in 8 years. The early and late 90's were bad for AU and great for Bama. The 2000's have been dominated by AU while Bama went through several coaches and probation.
Yes, there are occasional seasons when both teams are up (1971, 1994, 2005), but a majority of the time one team has controlled the rivalry.
Faker - Perhaps you aren't aware of the context of the "momentum" discussion. Perhaps you still have fever. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
what is jccw?
Joe Cribbs' Car Wash ... another Auburn-related blog.
One key difference: I actually report on Auburn and he reacts to the collective reportage.
http://www.warblogeagle.com/
the joe cribbs carwash
Oh...Thanks JayG.
I could start a Bama blog and call it Santonio Beard's Barbeque Shack. Makes about as much sense as Joe Cribbs' Car Wash does to me...
in other words, Jay G gets these things called facts first hand. Additionally, he verifies the information. The JCCW, while good at recaps of games after a few days, reacts to information other people gather. The JCCW gets information 2nd and 3rd hand. Thus, his work has a probability to get things out of context.
Now, I like the JCCW because it links to other really good Auburn Blogs and the soft porn of a Tennessee site called Losers with Socks.
http://loserswithsocks.com/
There some links to other SEC blogs. He has some outdated links as well
Go to JCCW and check out the history. It makes some sense. Hinnan does good work on Mid Major basketball
There is something to the momentum thing when you look out of state. It matters. Players in GA, Fl, and LA that would typically look at Auburn with more relevance are now looking at Alabama. In state, Alabama has always held an edge being the state school. There are plenty of players looking at what could propel them to the NFL with greater ease. And there's a lot of perception in that.
Right now, Alabama LOOKS like the place to be in this state. Bo Jackson and Carnell Williams did not grow up Auburn fans.
See?
It matters. And this year the state of Alabama is a little low on elite talent. Dre Kirkpatrick is not a stud. Neither is Kendall Kelly. In addition, Jamar Travis out of Brewton is not an elite players yet he's ranked high as a kite.
Last year I told many a people that Burton Scott was a 5 star bust. There was every conceivable chance to play this year at Bama and he couldn't make the cut even given a huge lack of playmakers. They see now that they missed on him.
2009's 5 star bust is none other than the Panhandle's Trent Richardson. Much shorter than advertised. Much slower than advertised. Alligator arms and average hands at the very best. Yet he's their hype guy.
All this winding and twisting to say momentum is real and iþ gives you a better change to land better talent out of the state.
In terms of football, momentum refers to the attitude of the university, coaches, players, and fans. This relates very well to the description of loosing as a virus. Winning is also. Notice that teams with long winning streaks tend to loose several games if they loose one. They loose momentum, or the winning attitude.
I'd suggest listening to Jay's interview of Josh Bynes again:
On if rivalry-game wins matter in recruiting: "Florida probably is the best team in the whole country -- or USC. It doesn't matter. It's how you fit into that system and how you feel when you go there. Because you can go to a lot of schools and they might be the best school, always undefeated, but it's all about that feeling when you go there. If you don't feel comfortable with the players or anybody else, you're not going to want to be there. And that's how I feel. But I went to a lot of other places, and that's why I came here.
Yet, momentum is real. You either have it or you don't. Auburn doesn't have it right now. Alabama does.
i have to admit that, being out here in tucson, the rivalry doesn't carry the same punch as i'm sure it does for the habotn's back home (except when my sister--crim. just. degree from au, law degree from ua) calls to rub it in. (she hasn't been calling much over the past 6 years!), but, even when i come back home, my extended family is so mixed between ua and au fans that we just have a good time over it. there aint no hate.
Crudup,
Regarding Kirkpatrick, Florida's DC told him last year that he has NFL level skills. How do I know this? Let's just say that one of his H.S. coaches overheard the conversation.... :-)
I would venture that you would be singing a different tune if he were going to Auburn.
Additionally, you downgrade BJ Scott because he isn't playing a ton. Neither is Jerrell Harris and Auburn fought like heck to get him. Sometimes it takes a year for a freshman to earn some playing time.
I suppose any WR in this upcoming Auburn class that doesn't play immediately will be a bust too? Especially considering the poor play of the current crop. You probably want to back off of talking smack about Kendall Kelly because Auburn has a chance with him.
Finally, I'll take my chances with Trent Richardson.
I would hate the University of Alabama (and all that it entails) with a Crimson passion even if I live in Kazakhstan ... For the record.
No offense FSJ.
LOL...Love the honesty Phred...
Yes, momentum is real, but it isn't increased or decreased in the state of Alabama by winning the Iron Bowl. That is, after all, what Doug's question and Jay's blog post was about.
Very interesting Monica...
I'm glad you agree with me.
FSJ, it's all chances. Some people believe the opinions they read and some people like to see for themselves because it's their job. Some people just like "chances".
Burton was a bust in my ever so humble opinion because I watched him play four years. He went from dynamite freshman/sophmore to a much lesser impact player. He was nothing as a senior.
And, you know what? Mike McNeil is one of th biggest busts I've seen out of the Mobile area. He was absolutely not a strong player as a junior and senior. A lot of thes guys raise a lot of hype early in high school and seem to quit developing. Burton and Mike are prime examples.
And, FSJ, I'm not worried about incoming WRs. We have four that are very good to great that need to be on the field and most likely will with a new OC.
Oh, FSJ, Auburn has 0 "chance" with Kelly. 0. And that doesn't make me say he's a bust. That's just childish. I think Julio Jones is one of the 5 most dominating player on the offensive side of the ball in the SEC. Mark Ingram is a stud. Hightower is developing into a one man wrecking crew.
Regretfully, I have to admit that Julio is a star. I hope he has a 24 hour stomach virus on Nov. 29, moving on to a full recovery for the championship game.
I say that you can't trust people that say the following: "I root for both teams but when they play each other I root for Auburn/Alabama. You are either for one or the other. Jay G, you of all people should know. During most of the 80s U of L was the place to be. Joe B was kind of staid and UK was seen as too strait laced. When Pitino came on board at UK, then UK became hot and sexy. When Joe B and Eddie were the coaches the two schools rarely went after the same players. However, with the arrival of Pitino, UofL and UK went after the same players.
I see similiar things going on between Auburn and Alabama. My knock on CTT is that he didn't seize the initiative when he had an ample opportunity. His domination of Alabama for the last 8 years has not reaped the benefits that a good many Auburn people have thought that it should. True or not, that is the perception.
Monica, you're absolutely right. A win or a loss doesn't do much for momentum for either team this year. Auburn's cure will be winning ways again next season.
Phred, good to be in the same place at the same time with you. Been awhile.
Legends...
... in our own minds.
How's things down in the sugar sand country? Catfish bitin'?
The catfish are a bitin'. I had an interesting delusion Wednesday. I was in Wings restaurant where Joey Jones and Prattville's former coach we're doing a radio show.
I thought to myself, what are the chances Chris Todd is South Alabama's starting QB next year?
Is that even possible?
He's an interesting story though. He's probably one of those guys that will be a third string holder for some NFL team and somehow wind up winning the Super Bowl.
And we'll all say ... Huh?
I just can't see Todd at Auburn this upcoming spring even. And he doesn't seem like a guy that's ready to retire to intramural flag football just yet.
South Alabama will need somewhat of a proven QB to compete at all at first. It's a long shot and maybe not possible. But I was having deep thoughts.
I think a win by Auburn would tarnish this season and take momentum from Alabama. The weird thing about this rivalry is that because it is the last game of the season and not the first. To lose that last game, well, To paraphrase Samuel Clemons, It would be a good season spoiled. It would be the ultimate dingle berrys in the punch bowl scenerio for Alabama if Auburn could pull this one off. Sometimes the better team does not win.
Jay G do you remember the 1998 1999season where UofL had no business being on the same court with UK, but they pulled off the win. That was the game with 6'7" 360 LB player for Uof L. Yes those were the days.
Auburn can win, it is not as big a stretch as people would like to believe.
Crudup,
Auburn has a better chance with Kelly than you think.
FSJ, I don't think it matters on Kelley. That's the point. Saban knows who is coming and who is on the fence. Dre and Kendall, per Saban, will wait until signing day to announce the Tide as their program of fate. There will be a few more doing the same thing.
Saban likes to play with momentum. There's that word again.
This Louisville stuff is killing me. It's a tad insane.
I didn't know Mark Twain wrote about dingle berrys. See ya boys and girls. I'm headed to mama's house for an early thanksgiving with the family.
Keep the faith.
Oh yeah ... goooo Texas Tech!
I speculated that Todd was valuable for this season only. In a perfect world, he would have successfully run the offense long enough for Kodi to catch on and eventually take over before season's end...and then.....stuff happened.
So much for speculation.
I think Todd will be at Auburn next year. If his arm is 100 then he will compete. If not, then he will be on the team and complete his education. I just don't seem him leaving with a bad shoulder.
Anybody out there that went to T-town and froze like I did in the rain. I liked it better when it was sleet. Then it warmed up enough to rain and soak everyone. Soaked through my gloves. You get the picture. 9 points was all that we needed and it is possible that is all we will need on November 29.
AU has a lot of QBs on scholly. A medical scholly would not be surprising.
Several blogs have mentioned that the AU offensive signs were stolen/given out. Supposedly Kodi was interviewed on TV and confirmed that is why AU went to the huddle.
Is there anything to this?
Though Denny Crum ably defended Jerry, I just want to throw my hat in the ring for JCCW. It's a quality blog. The recaps are informative and entertaining (not so much this year, though), and the columns aren't bad. His reaction to news/blog coverage (The Works) really seems to be a riff of EDSBS's Curious Index, but he sums up the coverage well. I'm actually surprised that he had such strong words for the HABOTN. Between these two sites (and The Auburner and War Eagle Reader), they're on my daily read list during football season.
Denny,
If Auburn only scores 9 points next Saturday, odds are that they will lose.
Unless they're playing Kentucky,
Auburn, or Arkansas (I'm from there), I actually do pull for
Alabama. Have even been to a few games there with my wife (a true
Tide fan). But, as I said, I'm not originally from this state. Is that still potential grounds for having my HABOTN card removed? :)
CTF...reasonable folks with objective viewpoints are needed on the HABOTN to keep us Dyehards from gnashing at each other, especially this year.
FSJ is the token Bama fan. He treads just lightly enough to earn respect. JGT will appreciate the Ky connection.
Welcome aboard.
Hoopie,
Am I really the only Bama fan here?
How'd that happen? :-)
For those HABOTN Hotties going to Tuscaloosa next weekend, skip the trip to Dreamland. Overhyped, IMO.
The best BBQ in Tuscaloosa is in Northport at Archibald's.
Archibald's
Crap...Link didn't take...
Archibald's
I took their crap from 1973-81 ... from 3rd grade through high school, and I ain't putting up with it again.
Crimson is the color of sin.
As Jim Fyffe said, if you say you are for both teams, you are not to be trusted.
Choose this day whom you shall serve.
CTF -- wow, hadn't really thought about the initials of my handle until I say them spelled out, Hoopie. I might want to come up with a new one...
Love the biblical reference, Jet.
Philistines ... children of Baal.
One of my desires is for us to get really Old Testament on them ... I thought we were in 2005, but we only won by 10.
You tell 'em, Jet!!!
Crimson is the color of sin. :-)
I believe it was the legendary Billy Joel that said "the sinners are much more fun."
And I definitely don't trust anyone who lets Christie Brinkley slip away!
Jet's got several flights tomorrow ... plus a wedding late in the day ... hope to be back for the warmth of a campfire on a cold, Saturday night.
Kick 'em the butt, Big Blue!
You better be back in time for Campfire.
my opinions:
I have been out all day.
Archibalds is GREAT!
Momentum in what? Never defined. Recruiting, playing on the field, coaching? What exactly. No, there is no momentum to be gained on the field by BAMA if they win. i.e., this win will not matter in next year's iron bowl.
Recruitining, yes. Obviously, it has an effect.
Fans. Some yes. Some like winners and get excited. Sort of like when Sarah Palin was announced. Most republicans (like Bama fans in the early 2000s.) were content to sit it out. Once an excitement level had been added, they were all in.
So, I think Saban, a Bama victory and even an SEC championship will build the momentum for their fans to get more excited.
coaching - no, there is no momentum gain by winning a single iron bowl in terms of coaching prowess.
say = saw in my previous post. Can't type past 10:00 PM.
It would have been interesting to see the responses to this same topic had Jay asked the question exactly 4 years ago.
Most of us realize that, anamolies like 73-81 aside, this rivalry tends to be somewhat cyclical, with UA having some obvious advantages that tend to cause the swings in their direction to be a little more pronounced.
That said, there isn't an AU person reading this that would have predicted the turn of events since the 2007 Iron Bowl.
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